You may have stumbled upon this blog by any means of search engines.
I hope that you reached here before it is too late.
If you are indeed too late, I would only say that your best help now is God.

Read on for any stories that interest you and I do hope they help and the best is to read the comments. ;)
Best Regards,

Thursday, April 13, 2006

Lampe Berger - Good,Bad,Ugly

Recently, saw 2 friends, both still a distributor in Lampe Berger.
One of them is challenging Marquis. Means, currently at the position of
Count and garnering sales to earn himself a Marquis position.
We talked abit, asking how each of us is doing.

We were once in the same team, but when things turn ugly=MONEY..
The big team split into two... it is a long story.. but to cut things short...
Once you let money carry you away, it will turn really ugly even for the
bestest friend of whom you are with will end.

He brought up the matter of the 2 team, we were both separated in 2 teams.
I told him, it is because of an un-ethical upline I have, I decided to stop.
Not because it can't be done, just NO WAY to un-ethical upline.
In a way, just me pursuing what I like to do in my career in life...

Well, he is not that pushy kind of person when I knew him last time.
Very energetic, and well mannered person, both of them. Maybe their
success is paying off because of their good deeds. Maybe.. who knows..

Talking about good deeds, anonymous reader pointed me to these two pics..

Well, I've known that Steven Yeam donated RM 100,000 to the Monfort
Boys Town expansion project even before it came to the news. That is a good
thing to do. I wonder how many Distributors are following his footstep.

What's more ugly is, even with his success, he fail to educate his people to be
a good ethical distributor and maintain an integrity in the business.

Even worst, with problems arising, he takes no concern at all, to solve it.
I would say, he is only success on the outside, but internally, he is not...
"Money" in DCHL/Lampe Berger makes one prevent each other to climb
in ranks... thus jeapordizing their friendship in the business... why?

I've seen it with my own eyes, and it just sucks..

Personally, I do respect Steven Yeam in person, just that, matters like this
that arises, it not dealt profesionally..

I do agree, that there are people who are making this whole "business" as
a living and I do wish them luck. What we here ask those successful ones
is to get rid of those bad apples in there.. that's all we ask.. justice to those
were once "cheated" by their un-ethical uplines, because the up-lines
wants to make quick buck by pulling more people in and thats all...

Lampe Berger's topic has been hot this few years and it is getting hotter.
Why they are so different from many other Direct Selling companies?
Why are some distributors are neglecting the DSAM Code of Conducts,
which is endorsed by Ministry of Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs.

There are even comments that MLM is Spoiled and Soiled.
Shall we draw our conclusion now? or shall we wait for the Ministry's Action
which we all know that will never come...?

Have we now a better understanding of LB yet? Guess not.. There are more..

LB Help, will not rest its blog, untill, there is no more matters of re-fund
or un-ethical distributors are heard..


Andrew said...

well... a good post fom u!

Steven Yip said...

I can see Steven Yeam Arch Duke, and Winnie Lim Duke.

Lampe Berger Help said...

Yeap.. both of them are there..

Guess that Duke Winnie Lim is raking in about more than RM 50,000 a month huh.. rather RM 100,000 plus a month even..


Anonymous said...

I disagree on this post.

You need to be unethical and ruthless to be successful in the Lampe Berger business and Steven Yeam is the leader of it. Don't expect him to settle problem on refunds. If he allow refunds, that will be the end of the Lampe Berger business for him. Who will not want a refund ?

That donation is a showoff and publicity to gain more support from the people for the benefits of his business, not out of a kind heart.

If he encourage refunds, than I will believe he is really kind.

Anonymous said...

This is strange. Is the OP sure of going against them or just having a debate or dicussion ?

Why is a defending post being highlighted and not counter-defended ??

Anonymous said...

Is the OP getting close to his refund or got "bought" back to LB ?

Not surprise. Everyone is doing something out of greed and personal reasons ?

Lampe Berger Help said...


You can disagree, but our objective is to promot a more ethical way of doing this business..

I don't ask him to encourage re-fund, but make sure, their distributors are honest..

With that, re-fund matters will not happen.. BUt there is always never a perfect system.. so we don't demand much here..

Just that, we will still condemn if there are un-ethical distributors..

Anonymous said...

first of all, do u all think that we really need this SYN/LB/DCHL in our society? do u all think that we need this so-called 'business' to become rich, to drive BMW, to live a luxurious life? we need this 'opportunity' to earn more money? while seriously i think our society don't need this so-called 'business'!!! it is useless as we have seen too much problems created by this so-called ‘business’!

Stupid Yeam Network (a.k.a SYN) sucks!!!

Lame Bastards (a.k.a LB) sucks!!

as we can see, this 'business' doesn't benefit our society at all! it causes so many problems in the society, borrowing money from the loanshark to join the company, borrowing money from parents, relatives, friends, etc.. n eventually most would ended up not paying back the money. some even threaten their parents to give them the money. terrible!

Those who wanted to join the company are all brain-washed! The funniest thing is that one guy from LB told me that if brain-washing can makes a person earns more than 20K per month, what’s wrong being brain-washed? What kind of explanation is this? They firmly believe that this ‘business’ will brings them what they want in their life. Some said that they think this ‘business’ will improve their quality of life, as they will be better off, while some said that by investing into this ’business’ they will be able to buy BMW, even at the age of 18 or 19, or able to buy luxury goods like LV (Louis Vuitton). What can we say about them? Na├»ve? Or ambitious? Bear in mind that it’s good to be ambitious n have dreams in our life, but be realistic, most of them have ended up becoming worse off!!! Having debts with them!!!

I met a guy from LB. he is a ‘marquis’.
He is driving a BMW, a two-seater car. He is trying to be boastful with that car, n that irritates me! guess what? That’s a second-hand car! N someone told me he is paying installment to the bank for 9 years! 9 years my god! By the time he finished paying the installment I guess the car already become a scrap iron? N it’s a second-hand car! What the f*ck… trying to show people outside that he is now rich after invested in this ‘business’ by driving a SECOND-HAND car??? That’s rich???
R u stupid? Idiot? Retarded? Moron? Or brainless?????
It is the very first time in my life I meet such a person. Not rich but want to act like he’s rich. I know what kind of people who really can afford a BMW, definitely not people like him! I know a lot of rich businessman through my father, who drives a BMW. I know who n what type of people have the ability to buy a BMW.
Rich people don’t buy second-hand cars to show off! Buy a REAL BMW if u think u r rich! Real BMW as in brand-new one, not SECOND-HAND! That’s funny, really! As I can see, most of them r driving a second-hand one, or old-fashioned BMW with new car plate numbers (that‘s imported second hand car right? Haha!). Rich man will only buy new car, while those self-proclaimed ‘rich’ man can only afford to buy those cars which already used by the really rich one!

There are so many people outside condemning LB/SYN/DCHL but I am wondering why this company had never tried to defend themselves, even though some criticisms really hurts them, destroying their images.

I am also wondering why people from this particular company likes BMW n LV so much! When they are using luxury goods to attract people to invest, most of them will only use BMW n LV. I guess the shareholders from BMW n LV should come n shake the hands of those LB ‘distributors’ for being so so so supportive! There are so many nice n high class brand outside, like Versace, Dunhill, Prada, Burberry, Gucci, Chanel, but they just like to use LV! I guess I shouldn’t condemn too much on this part as this is a matter of personal preference. I think most LB ‘distributors’ only likes BMW n LV..

however i think I m not going to condemn too much on their products (LB & Estebel) n their company. the main thing which we must focus is the people in LB/SYN/DCHL. it's their attitude n the way they recruit people which causes so many people are going against this 'business' now.
personally i think their products n their company are fine. some people might like to use the lamp, while some might not. Again, i think it's a matter of personal preference. if u like it then u use it, if not, throw it away or give it to someone else.
The company which located at menara HLA.. hmm.. not bad. A well-designed place n it’s quite comfortable. a good place n environment to work at. there's a restaurant in front of that company too, the food.. not bad!

but, when talking about the people there, those 'distributors', or i should call them 'recruiters', are so irritating!
the way they act..
the way they talk..
the way they behave..
so irritating! Trying their very best to act like a rich people b4 they become rich! they think they are already somebody after joining the company. They think they are above everyone else. Arrogant!!! They think they are special. They think they are managing a multinational ‘business’ as they can develop their ‘business’ into several countries, while most of them ended up as losers. Losers who lost their money, relationships with their friends n family, n most importantly dignity!

They are all very desperate! They expect people who have heard about their marketing plan to join them as soon as possible, it’s even better if u can join immediately! They will play mind games with you with all their grandfather n grandmother stories, or by showing off their cars (most of the time will be BMW), their bags (mostly LV) n their watches or briefcase, n they will indirectly “force” you to join by playing mind games with you! They will have plenty of ideas for u if u tell them u r having difficulties in getting the RM2345 or RM30K, like ask from your parents, if your parents “ban” u, u try to talk to them n show them that you have grown up. Some even ask me to bring out some tears to show my parents that I really wanna join the company. What the f*ck!!! I m not lying, it’s a true story!
They will also ask u to borrow from your friends & relatives, they will tell u that their marketing plan is so perfect that u will definitely get back the money within a few months! N I have heard of some really terrible LB ‘distributors’ where they ask their friends to borrow money from loan-sharks!
If u r a distributor of a good company, what’s the point of being so desperate? People have brains, they know how to think n decide! Don’t need to force people indirectly!

They are merely confusing u with theories and philosophies. This is what LB people love to do, confuse you.. I have met quite a number of LB people n they like to say “who doesn’t breath? Everyone needs to breath right? Even animals n plants also need breathing to survive. that’s why there is huge potential in the air market.” n they always say that they are a team, they work together as a team, but why there are so many people who joined LB then failed to earn a single cent? As a team-mate, what u LB people have done to help them? Whenever people failed, LB people will say “ u r not sincere n not fully committed” or “ u don’t even know what u really want” or “u don’t have teamwork n doesn’t work nicely with us” or “ only people who quits are losers, they will never be successful”……
When they are asking u to join, they will treat u nicely… when u refuse to join, they become a totally different person! It’s like only people who join LB can be their friends! Ridiculous!

Be careful of joining in at Franchisee level, which cost RM 2345. It's just a lure before they urged you to upgrade to Count, which will cost u RM 30,000!
Be careful whenever your “friends” called u out.. Especially when they want to meet u at places around times square or menara hla! Be careful!

*** I m nicholas87. I m a college student. I m here to tell u all how I feel about this so-called ‘business’ n what I think about the ‘distributors’. I m merely expressing my personal opinion.

Duke said...

wah..Winnie Lim only takes home 50k ++ only every month???

duke should be taking home more than RM150k every month lah...

Lampe Berger Help said...

Oh... sorry duke.. :P

I am just estimating...

Maybe I said.. :)

Well, 150k a month.. no doubt tho.. with the people below her..

Anonymous said...


Don't you understand and see through the whole business yet ?

Don't expect this Company to be ethical. Those distributors are unethical BECAUSE they are encouraged to work this way and allowed from the Company. Of course, the management will never admit this.

Why do you think there are no complaints of LB in 100 over years in other countries and so many complaints since this MLM system ?

The practice and system is set by the Company and NOT the distributors. Oh, you are so naive or what ?

Anonymous said...


I agree with you with your opinions but you mentioned comdemn the people and not the the Company, you are very naive and wrong.

The Company created the people. If the people are doing wrong and yet the Company don't stop them, you should know it whose idea is it.

All pyramid and scam companies work in the same way. They let the top leader do all the talking. End of the day, the management can claim it's not their faults and not as practiced in their rules and regulations.

froginkl said...

NIcholas 87,
U r rite, real 'rich' man don't drive 2nd hand BMW. As for the LV & BMW frenzy thingy...don't you guys realize it's like some trend in Hong Kong.??? Do you know what is copycat of movie show etc...hahah that is the thing, the c2pit mindset of being a follower instead of a leader.

hehe...basically, i have been invited countless times to their recruitment or so called bizness opportunity talk. They just tell me to follow what the leaders are doing, just do like what a photocopy machine does and u will be successFOOL. Basically, it is like an Amoeba kinda thingy. So, if your upline is an idiot, u will be an idiot too, if he is a successFOOL, u will definitely be a SUCCESSFOOL.

one advice,
"if you want to be a master learn from theh wise and not the vice...""

for the people said...

scam are everywhere lah...

u think your parents so nice take care of you..send you to school ask you study hard become doctor for what???

they want next time you to take care of them and give them money to spend this oso donno..

aaron said...

bottom line LB is doing an un-ethical business..telling those before hand members that they will get their money back by 6 months..end up those 30k fragance oil can be use for BBQ purposes..and they kept saying that their lamp its a collectors item, but again same lamp is produce over n over again..that is why so many blogs of hatred is blooming on the net..

Lampe Berger Help said...

Oh. there are collectors item, and they actually call it "Signature Lampe"...

And cannot be re-funded wan..

Anonymous said...

whats the problem with LB people trying to psycho people with LV and BMW? Some of them are really big show-offs trying to tell me LVs are for the rich. LV is just a well known name due to huge advertisement budgets. Everyone can afford an LV out of their monthly salary, its just whether they want to pay such a high price for an LV. Like what nicholas mentioned, name them something like Gucci, Versace, Prada, Burberry and probably they won't even recognise the brand. Do the LB distributors know even students can save to buy an LV? LOLx
I had this LB distributor trying to show off that he could afford to live and dine like the rich but he failed to pull it off. Oh well, I guess the comments posted says it all...

Lampe Berger Help said...


Always LV we all also sienz liao hor..

Why not Dunhill or Prada, I think more exclusive..

Niche is the key word...

Use something other's don't use..
Then u are outstanding..

Anonymous said...

nicholas87 here.

hey, for the people..

u r condemning parents like that?
r u comparing parents n those uplines (just in case u r a LB member)? or your friends?

who bring u to this world?
who send u to schools?
who give u pocket money when u r still young n couldn't earn money by yourself?
who take care of u when u r sick?

maybe deep in your mind, u think parents give everything to their childrn because they need someone to take care of them when they r old. sad to see someone like u!!!

parents take good care of u because that's their responsibility. they brought u into this world, so they have to take care of u, make sure u r educated, make sure u will be someone useful. they have spent so much time n money on u when they were young. so as a son/daughter, it's also your responsibility to take care of them when they are old n unable to take care of themselves!

what is so great about those LB uplines? or even friends outside? they have gave u a very good 'opportunity' to earn money huh??? an 'opportunity' to be successFool???
don't tell me that without education, u will be successful! don't tel me that by investing into that 'business', u will be successful, even without education? now tel me who provides u education? who send u to schools? your uplines??? haha!!!

every parent in this world loves their children!
every uplines in LB loves their down-lines too!
but what's the difference between their loves???
parents' love comes truely from their heart, they really love u n want u to get the best things in life, even if they need to sacrifice things. if u r not someone successful, if u r not able to earn something like 5 digits a month, they will still love u n love u...

LB uplines love u too, but not everything of u! they only love your money! if u r successful, earning a lot of money for them, they will love u!!! but if u failed to earn money, very not successful, do u think they will stil love u? they will tell u all kinds of grandfather & grandmother stories why u failed!!!

n if u failed to earn a lot money for yourself, i think your parent will still give u some pocket money, even if they are already old n cannot work now..
try to ask some money from your friends or uplines, when u don't have money...
c what they will tell u...

it's sad to see someone talking about parents like that!
hey, for the people..
maybe u cant feel your parents love. but i believe that your parent loves u very much. maybe they love u in a different way, so u cant feel it or get it now.

by the way, jackass, love your parent! not your friends or your uplines (if u r a LB member)!!!

study hard n be a doctor, your entire family will feel proud!!!

Anonymous said...

there's cunning person in every industry,
what if u are a doctor today?
A doc earns money too,in same he's not any good too.Some are even worse,selling mc,selling med at high price,lazy to consult patient...If it's that good,don't earn any profit.Or shall i judge you doctors, is a professional cheater?What's wrong for Steven Yeam to donate?When some of u do nothing and talking about ppl?Are you guys earning anything by talking bullshit about ppl?But i'm sure of one thing. Steven will thanks to those anti lampe berger because they 're u guys,he'll be's a secret where non ordinary can reveal.Finally there's one more thing,lampe berger is not steven.Steven is not lampe berger.If u hate lampe berger, pls complain to the headquaters in France.One more single thing i'll touch about is, refund.There's refund but with applied terms.Supermarket in uk have this term refund too.But do u think they'll refund easily.Of course NOT!!!Who will refund to u in the way u are just trying for fun?But in DCHL yes. do refund if it's reasonable. it's a neutral point of view,believe good things is better than not to believe. Because only from believe there are aeroplanes.

Anonymous said...

Heheh I think he's just donating the money to "balance out" his karma.

Who wants to bet that his medium / feng shit loh / spiritual advisor told him to make a large donation eh? eh?


Lampe Berger Help said...


I will reply from a new post..
wait for it..

for the people! said...

to the first for the people,

i am surprised you used this nick and replied like this :

"scam are everywhere lah...

u think your parents so nice take care of you..send you to school ask you study hard become doctor for what???

they want next time you to take care of them and give them money to spend this oso donno.. "

u copied this nick isnt? lb help, u know from my prev post, i have never written like this b4 rite? to the person who use this nick, if u want to post unconstructive comments, just change to another name!

Lampe Berger Help said...

aih.. haha.. that fella is using ur name for his/her own good.

oh well..

Anonymous said...


can i as u something? what car do u have now? i think a second hand proton u also dont have..i means u are buying yourself with your own salary or money.

Anonymous said...

*** I m nicholas87. I m a college student. I m here to tell u all how I feel about this so-called ‘business’ n what I think about the ‘distributors’. I m merely expressing my personal opinion.

U are a student, how u know bout business thing? where r u leaning this business, or u feel it. i can tell u one thing, now u r studying , study need money rite? from where your money come.. from your father? or u loan from your father? do u think earn your own money is easy? i can saying that u r now not a succesful person, u know y? because u r using your father money rite...

nicholas87 said...

to the anonymous above,
there are NO proton cars or 2nd hand cars in my house..

why can't a college student learn about the business? we all know very well that those LB people are aiming university & college students.. there are so MANY students outside who have joined LB! how come u never know about this? where r u staying? some jungle or mountain???
please go out n get to know more about what is going on outside...

i got to know about this so-called 'business' through a friend of mine. i have went to their gathering, business preview, n their office in KL many times. they (my friend's friends) are trying very hard to ask me to join, but in the end, i didn't...

one of the main reasons why i didn't join is that i feel that they are not honest people. creating all kinds of grandfather n grandmother stories just because they want me to join..
they are so so so desperate!
i m wondering why..
if it's really a good business, don't need to be so desperate.

this is the first time in my life i meet people like them, act to be rich, n some of them are not rich but acting rich! that's why they are easily influenced by their uplines who asked them to joined, just showing off their BMW n LV will do... i don't blame them, i think they really wanna improve their life n they believe LB is a good opportunity 4 them. it's their choice..

and can u teach me how to FEEL a business? i will be happy to learn it!!!
please use your brain n think before u make any comment!

i m still studying n i receive money from my parent every week, and just trust me that with my pocket money i can afford what many LB members can! they can buy luxury goods? i can buy it too! even though my pocket money is not a huge amount..

and when did i say that i m a successful person? i m a student who still doesn't have any great achievements in my life. but who knows what will happen in the future? maybe i will be much more successful than u??? haha...
by spending my father's money means not successful? then i would like to know what about u? r u successful? or successFool? r u studying or working right now? if u r working, how much are u earning? if my pocket money is more than your salary, i will burst in laughter! n if u r still studying, then u r also NOT successful!!!

or r u trying to say that every students are not successful person? coz they are also spending their parents money...

then can u name me some successful students?

don't tel me those students who have joined LB, n how much they are earning now, or how successful they are... (are u one of them? haha!)

i know some students who joined LB. some said that they feel they are successful! just because they are able to earn money now. they just managed to earn very little, sometimes not even a single cent! buy they will still claimed that they are earning something like 4-digits or 5-digits every month. they have spend so much time n energy on it, but cant earn much. i think they should concentrate on their studies, don't bring dissapointments to their parents.. n what about u? are u like one of these people i've mentioned?

almost every successful person in this world used to be a student, if they are not successful, then there will be no successful person in this world..

*** it's too early to judge whether a student will become successful or not.. they might be more sucessful than you!

Lampe Berger Help said...

One would have to walk the walk of life to be succesfull.
No matter what you do, you need to start from the basics.

Basics which is :
first Family,
second Education,
third Experience.

That sums all..

cheez said...

all these posts about DCHL/LB/SYN makes for interesting reading. certainly there's a lot of passionate feelings expressed. in most postings, i find a common theme on the anti-LB side: ppl got cheated of 30k cos LB members recruit based on greed.

let me state clearly that i 100% SUPPORT this statement!

it's a fact of life that like attracts like. greedy ppl will attract and recruit greedy ppl and the cycle goes on until one day it collapses, because greed can never be the basis for any kind of success in life at all.

but before I go further, let me clarify where i am coming from.

i am currently an active member of DCHL. i joined the company in 2003. before that, i began my working life as an employee in an advertising co. in '96. but in '98, i was out of a job and i have been self-employed since.

now my LB story...

my sis dragged me along with her to see the LB marketing plan in 2003. i was reluctant cos i was not interested in MLM, having turned down a very good friend's invite to join Amway just a few days before.

but after finding out about the LB product (from the 'net. i'm not so dumb to find out from the people selling it-sure they say good la!) i saw that it had a viable function and therefore a viable market, so i decided to join as count with my sis. i couldn't do this business with a clear conscience otherwise.

3 1/2 years later, have i made my millions? not yet.
Do i drive luxury car? no, just my old wira
do i use DCHL's products? yes
Has it helped me? yes, and my wife, and my 4 yr old daughter, and my extended family
have i made my investment back? yes.
have people bought products from me? yes.
has it helped them? yes.
do i have downlines? yes.
anyone joined as count? yes.
have they made money? yes.
have people bought products from them? yes.
has it helped them? yes.

As you can see, I have good reason to believe that this is a viable business-from theory and practical experience.

it's sad that the image of an 100plus yr old product like LB suffers under the greedy shenanigans of a few. And even more sad that these people hv generated so much ill-will that it’s making life difficult for people like me who are still trying to make an honest living in LB.

i myself always say: whatever you do, don't do it just because of money. because if money is the only motivation, when you have not enough, you'll quit. when you have made enough, you will also leave.

and i have seen it happen again and again in the people around me, including LB members. my own sis left her group, including me, high and dry after she got tired of the game and quit.

so how do i react? i could hv quit and blame my upline and the co. it's perfectly natural! But I decided to go on because I knew I had a viable product. and I committed not to abandon my team. I didn’t want anyone else to experience what I went through.

It’s been a long journey. And when some of my team members quit or don’t fulfill their responsibilities to their downlines, I and my uplines pick up for them. E.g. I have one person in outstation who joined in this year. She’s my 5th generation downline. In DCHL’s plan, I make 1% of her sales. How much sales has she generated so far? zero. But my upline and i have been making regular trips to support her. Each trip costs Rm200-300 per person at least. Rough estimate-I would have personally spent more than RM4 K so far. What have her 4 generation uplines done for her? Almost nothing! She carries a lot of disappointment because of her upline’s irresponsibility and wanted to quit.

i had so many reasons not to help her-I only make 1% from her sales, it’s so far to travel, I hv to spend so much money with no promise of return, it’s not my responsibility (her direct upline should be responsible), etc. most ppl will look at the plus and minus and make the natural decision: it’s not worth it! But we are still committed to her success because we can see the genuine desire in her.

MLM is a people business. We talk to ppl, solve ppl problems (personal relationship problems too sometimes!) It’s a difficult business where not many ppl will survive because not many ppl are willing to sacrifice so much of themselves to help other ppl.

But a lot of ppl will TRY MLM cos they are attracted by the promise of easy money by unscrupulous uplines. Make no mistake-this promise is not exclusive to LB. many other MLMers in other companies make the same promises.

I guess in LB’s case, money came fast and furious for some ppl. they never developed the discipline or ppl skills required to really succeed in the MLM industry. Without these skills, and without knowledge of the products they represent, plus their arrogance from getting fast, easy money & “success”, contributed to the bad image we are suffering now. You may be glad to know that many of these ppl have already left the biz or are struggling. As the saying goes “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

the backlash that results from the action of these ppl is understandable. But it’s also hurting the rest of us who are trying to build this biz with integrity.

I’m glad you focus on getting rid of the problem ppl instead of some other blogs crusading to bring down the whole company, motivated by nothing more than a heart full of hate for everything LB. Certainly it will be more constructive to educate ppl how to identify and avoid unscrupulous ppl and how to identify sincere ppl and give them a chance to be heard.

That way, me and my family would have a fair chance to make a living in this business that we love. cos many of us are really innocent and have a real passion for a product that in our experience obviously works.

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